• This is going to sound crazy, i encourage you all to eviscerate this theory and apply new perspectives.

    I think it's about Summer Rose, and that she may not be quite as dead as we have been led to believe.

    First verse:

    Close your eyes now time for dreams,

    death is never what it seems.

    did the things you thought you should,

    all the things they said were good.

    Now, i'm not an expert at lyrical analysis, but to me, that appears to mean either A:her death was planned, or B:it was faked.

    next verse:

    All your faith in ancient ways
    Leaves you trapped inside a maze.

    Take the lives of those you need,
    Sow the death then reap the seed.

    Reap the seed

    Possible resentment towards either Ozpin or the council for training hunters for a life of death and destruction


    Born an angel, heaven sent,
    Falls from grace are never elegant.
    Stars will drop out of the sky,
    The moon will sadly watch the roses die.

    Definititely a hero falling, wether this means death or changing sides is yet to be seen, if it is death, the moon could be symbolic of a person, as very little is known about the moon this will have to wait for further analysis at a later date


    in vain,
    Lost, no gain,
    But you're not taking me.

    Defiance of those who wish to send her to her death, likely the council or Ozpin. if he was somehow responsible for Summer's death, the sadness in his voice when he mentions the mistakes he made could be because he is directly responsible for Ruby losing her mother, whether this means pushing her until she changed sides or sent her to her death, once again, to be determined.

    (getting a headache, will finish typing up this totally insane theory in a little bit)

    (continued, part 1 skpping i wont fall etc.)

    Show them gods and deities,
    Blind and keep the people on their knees.
    Pierce the sky, escape your fate.
    The more you try the more you'll just breed hate,

    gods and deities could very possibly refer to the millitary and hunters, a false sense of security. piercing the sky (discovering something hidden from the public) and escaping fate being somewhat more literal, escaping the kingdoms to avoid some inevitable calamity.

    And lies.
    Truth will rise,
    Revealed by mirrored eyes.

    possibly related to the atlas millitary (or elements of it) backing the white fang with weapons. Perhaps summer discovered the plot in its earliest days, and lacking evidence, went undercover to try and stop it. if Ruby's silver eyes turn out to be hereditary and inherited from her mother, then it is very possible summer is underground actively trying to reveal the conspiracy.

    What if all the plans you made,
    Were not worth the price they paid?
    Even with the lives you stole,
    Still no closer to your...

    Pretty straightforward, whatever greater scheme the people backing the white fang have is failling, my theory is they are trying to forcibly unify the kingdoms by creating a common enemy. failure of the plan means a lot of innocent people died for nothing.

    and then a repetition of the chorus, reinforcing the statement of "I will not be a part of this conspracy"

    So, that's my first attempt at (over) analysing a song. what do you think?

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    • Mmm....I'm getting sleepy, so I won't say much.

      -I have a feeling that, the way you're saying it, it instead says more about Summer becoming evil, or at least changing sides, more than being actually dead.

      -Death is never what it seems...sure, it's the end of your life, but is that bad? For many, it's a moment of release from the pain and torture. Also, I think I should mention in this regard the Tarot, more specifically the Major Arcana.

      There are 22 Arcanas in the Major Arcana, starting from the Fool (0) to the World (21). Each card represents different things, and put in order, they are meant to represent the journey of one's life, from start to finish. Yet, Death is at the half of it. Why? Because the Death Arcana doesn't mean "You die", but rather it means the end of your previous life, and the start of another one. In other words, change, metamorphosis, for better or worse.

      Thus, alluding more to the possiblity of Summer changing either sides or alignment.

      -Take the lives of those you need...not necesarily the government. In Red Like Roses pt2, "Ruby" says how she was the one who needer her (Summer), and Summer says how she (Ruby) wasn't the only one who needed her. As such, we could say that was also the case with Summer. She needed her family and friends, just like Ruby needed her (at least, according to the song). And whatever change she got now, may force her to take the lives of her loved ones sooner or later.

      "Reap the seed" in particular, could mean Summer having to kill Ruby.

      -The 3rd verse can be taken as a "Fall from grace, into evil/darkness/villainy/whatever", alas, a change of sorts. "The moon will sadly watch the roses die"...she may be forced to kill her family (including the Roses), and with her very-apparent death, you could say Summer's Rose...died.

      -The 4th verse, could be seen as Summer not-really "liking" the things she may be forced to do, and herself refusing to "Fall". What do I mean by this? That Summer, following this theory, is not a villain, nor a hero. She's an Anti-Hero.

      Now, going to sleep.

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    • so, it does at least somewhat compute?

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    • Pretty much, what I ended up coming up with is that the kingdoms' governments see the hunters as disposable and use them as pawns that they can sacrifice, not caring if they die because there will always be more graduating from the academies. A hunter figured this out and quit, vowing to take revenge and bring these ancient ways to an end (Cinder? Or... it'd be cool if Summer was Cinder's boss).

      So, how does this big bad intend to bring down this ancient practice? By tearing the kingdoms down through war. Hence Die, Time to Say Goodbye, and certain lines in This Will Be the Day. Also, this is how Cinder managed to get the White Fang to team up with her group. The White Fang wants to change things and they're willing to resort to violence to do it, just like the big bad.

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    • I'd say care to elaborate, but you already have. what specific lyrics were you thinking of?

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    • Well, we know that Die is all about a war starting up.

      Time to Say Goodbye is about leaving behind childhood innocence in the face of war.

      • We can't just wait with lives at stake until they think we're ready. Our enemies are gathering. The storm is growing deadly.
      • There's a day when we'll fight and we're not gonna fall.
      • There's a moment in time and there's no going back, when we're pushed too hard and we won't hold our attack, anymore. We can't just cling to childish things as evil just grows closer. Humanity's in jeopardy. This fight is far from over.
      • Were we born to fight and die? Sacrificed for one huge lie? Are we heroes keeping peace, or are we weapons pointed at the enemy so someone else can claim a victory?

      In This Will Be the Day, the lyrics "Hope you're ready for a revolution. Welcome to a world of new solutions. Welcome to a world of bloody evolution." kinda remind me of what these songs talk about.

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    • the world is changing and not for the better, huh?

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    • ChishioKunrin wrote:

      In This Will Be the Day, the lyrics "Hope you're ready for a revolution. Welcome to a world of new solutions. Welcome to a world of bloody evolution." kinda remind me of what these songs talk about.

      Forgot about "I don't wanna hear your absolution", huh? Combined with "Hope you're ready for a revolution".....I'm sure you get what I mean.

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    • Well. I can kind of see where you guys are going with this. The songs to me seem to be more character centric with the openings being more world/volume centric. Usually their placement in the show tends to mirror the character they're written for as well.

      I like to relate Sacrafice between 3 people, though given the timing and placement, it really seems to be more about Adam. (Most of it can be linked to him/his story fairly easily.)

      close your eyes now time for dreams

      death is never what it seems

      did the things you thought you should

      all the things they said were good

      Would be about Adam being 'brainwashed' into believing the newer, more violent ways of the WF are good. 

      all your faith in ancient ways

      leaves you trapped inside a maze

      take the lives of those you need 

      sow the death then reap the seed

      reap the seed

      Faith in ancient ways would be akin to any faunus beliefs, possibly before or about the Faunus war.

      'Sow the death then reap the seed' bugs me on several levels; one dealing with a theory about being able to fuse/acquire semblances from those you kill which creates a ton of new theories about other things like why Adam seems to have two symbols, why this song would work for Neo and why she would be trying to kill Yang  who has a seemingly op semblance (and maybe part of an explanation for those shifting eye colors), as well as a new meaning behind Cinder's words of "take away what power they have" in conjunction with the compiled list of those with special semblances. 

      On a less theorized route, it could pertain to killing humans (planting death) and getting a reward from it (harvest the fruit) be it creating more fear of the WF, or perhaps even some sort of payoff. In a more recent sense, it could also relate to somehow acquiring a gain from killing off a lot of WF members in the train incident, though presumably I would think they were supposed to survive like Roman. 

      born an angel heaven sent

      falls from grace are never elegant 

      stars will drop out of the sky

      the moon will sadly watch the roses die

      in vain

      lost, no gain 

      He started out pure and good-intending like the rest, then with the 'brainwashing' into the new ways of the WF, he is falling victim to bloodlust and 'falling from grace' (his original purity). Stars fading from the sky could resemble the lost light of hope for renewal/redemtion. 

      "Moon will sadly watch the roses die" Could have multiple meanings. It could refer to his symbol 'Wilt' as it would picture the rose dying. It could refer to his 'Moonslice' ability at the end of the Black trailer where the moon appeared (suspiciously out of place as well) and what seemed like rose petals 'wilted' away as everything disintegrated. It could also support a theory that he resembles the moon (perhaps as an owl faunus which is a little higher up in the thread) that watched over or killed Summer Rose; hence watch the roses die. Following this might also explain the double symbol with a modified rose as he could've stolen a part of Summer's semblance.

      but you’re not taking me you can’t have my life

      i’m not your sacrifice

      you can try, but i’m free 

      and you won’t conquer me

      i won’t crawl 

      most of all

      i won’t fall 

      for you

      Originally, it feels like Blake defying Adam; fearing for her own safety that he may be 'collecting' (read:nurturing) souls as partners to sacrifice to gain even more power.

      To some extent, it could fit with Raven with the timing of the song if she were looking to somehow sacrafice Yang in some way and most of Yang's fighting songs talk about agressively rebelling against things. (Like in Die and I Burn)

      Show them gods and deities 

      blind and keep the people on their knees, 

      pierce the sky, escape your fate, 

      the more you try the more you'll just breed hate and lies. 

      truth will rise

      revealed by mirrored eyes

      From what I remember, it was stated or implied somewhere that the Kingdoms, hunters/huntresses and Grimm are not the only things that are a part of Remnant. Perhaps there are those who are 'gods' or 'deities' that this person is trying to become or prove themselves to. 

      'Blind and keep the people on their knees' could work as Adam being leader or a higher up in the WF forcing them to see things his way. 

      'Pierce the sky, escape your fate' would refer to his 'Moonslice' skill with the slash piercing the sky and escaping his defeat by disintegrating his foes.

      The more he tries to accomplish his goal in the WF, the more he's breeding hate and lies into society, with the added bonus of breeding more hate in himself towards his enemy (growing his bloodlust even more). It also works tied into the previous line as using his 'Moonslice' ability could be corrupting him with bloodlust.

      It will all come to an end when the truth is revealed by 'mirrored eyes'. This I'm unsure of, but at the moment, the closest thing resembling mirrored eyes would be Ruby's silver ones.

      What if all the plans you made, 

      were not worth the price they paid, 

      even with the lives you stole, 

      still no closer to your goal. 

      All the plans he made through kililng; be it stealing semblances or the killing of humans/ the WF deaths in the train incident, will eventually crumble and not be worth the price paid in blood.

      The lives you stole line also would work with the theory about Neo gaining aura/semblances from those she killed, but still being overcome by her opponents. 

      That's my take/ideas anyway. Thoughts? Opinions? 

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    • Back. The. Fuck. Up. That thing about stealing semblances... I've been reading the Odd Thomas books (Dean r Koontz, good stuff) and in the second book, forever odd, there's this crazy bitch who mentions something about extracting someones soul using some sort of ancient ritual and TRAPPING IT INSIDE OF A GEMSTONE(or a dust crystal, perhaps? then grind it up and use it for tattoos). anyways, in that book she was batshit crazy and it didn't work like that, but the concept could carry over and be an actual thing that can be done, remember that old myth that MIRRORs could trap the souls of the dead? yeah. think about it a bit, now peace out.

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    • @Spiegelmeister

      Well done, another awesome post I really do like it. It plays into my own theory quite well (guess I'm a tiny bit biased) but ultimately is a very reasonable analisys of the song. Props!

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    • Two things I wonder, and honestly don't remember the answers to:

      • Has it ever been confirmed that Summer is 100% definitely dead?
      • Has it ever been confirmed that Summer is not Cinder?

      I highly doubt either of those being untrue, but if either of them were untrue, I think there lies the key to the song. Though either way, I think the song is about Cinder vs. Summer vs. Society (at least two of the three).

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    • the cinder thing was confirmed by her being young enough to pass as a student, and summer's fate is still ambiguous, "never came back" can mean a hell of a lot of things.

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    • ^ Yeah, Cinder is way too young to be Summer, considering she's too young to have a 15-year-old daughter. The crew says Cinder is not much older than the Beacon students.

      Students graduate at 21, so I assume she's in her early to mid 20s.

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    • A FANDOM user
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