Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-5023546-20130910031001/@comment-11687-20131112021855

Nichosorn wrote: Well, I'd say you thought abouot it a bit. I am onboard for the most part, but using a straight d20 system that best compares to RWBY may work as well. For example Star Wars D20, or D&D 3.5. Both have elements - either by expansion books or character class breakdowns. The classes here are the key to your multi-round attack scenarios. It may very well take you out of it. AND wasn't there a D20 attempt for BESM? I know it is another system, but parts of it can flow for this creation.

I've thought about it a great deal - the d20 System is my hobby, and one that I've been deeply involved with for many years.

You're right in that a "straight" d20 System game could very well work for RWBY. The main reason for this is that the class-level system that is at the heart of generating a d20 character is, comparatively speaking, fairly restrictive in terms of what sorts of characters you can build. Basically, the bulk of the mechanical aspects of your character are decided when you pick their class.

Now, this is a generalization more than a a hard-and-fast rule. Third Edition (particularly in terms of Pathfinder) has tried very hard to loosen the constraints of the class-level system, via multi-classing and prestige classes, class archetypes and alternate class abilities, class abilities that let you pick from a "pool" of powers (e.g. rogue talents), feats (which are really just a large pool of universal class abilities), and (for spellcasting classes) the diverse selection of spells.

The problem here is that most of these are comparatively small methods of customization; most simply don't make very large changes within the context of the mechanics themselves. Multiclassing is an exception here, but it's also one of the thorniest areas of character customization; it's extremely easy to make a mistake that cripples your character later on (e.g. the difference between a 20th-level wizard and a 10th-level wizard/10th-level cleric, for example).

Now, is this much of an issue for a d20 RWBY game? In point of fact, no. The reason for this is because, purely in terms of measuring what they can do, the cast of RWBY are fairly similar to each other. They use different weapons, but gear is an external function of the characters. Most seem to have combat abilities that are, in all but very narrow definitions, very much the same (e.g. everyone can take a great deal of damage, leap about great distances, and deal powerful attacks). Aura powers are presumably the same for everyone in terms of what they can do, even if some are stronger or weaker than others.

Really, the only point of major individuation is with regards to semblances, which (it's implied) are unique to each individual. Semblances seem to have a very narrow theme, and have effects that are the equivalent to 3rd-level d20 spells (4th-level at most).

Is that hard to build using a standard d20 class? Not particularly. If we presume that the heavy focus on combat is best represented by a class with full Base Attack Bonus progression (and, in Pathfinder, the commensurate d10 - maybe d12 - Hit Die), then even the use of Semblances can be tacked on as minor spellcasting ability (e.g. the spellcasting abilities of paladins and rangers).

The problem is that the above reasoning takes us, as mentioned previously, to a place where the mechanics of the characters all start to look more similar in most major regards. If we presume that everyone (that is, every Huntsman and Huntress) has the same Hit Dice and BAB progression, then it makes sense that they'd receive the same number of skill points (Intelligence bonuses notwithstanding), and likely then the same save progression too (maybe proficiencies, but those matter very little).

At that point, the only real (mechanical) differentiating factors are what semblance is chosen. True, there are small things (e.g. feat progression) but for the most part, your characters are all going to look very similar when put to their character sheets.

Now, this isn't necessarily any sort of deal-breaker. Actual role-playing doesn't rely (very much) on mechanics, after all. Likewise, there have been (and still are) many good RPGs that don't require a wide variety of character options and types to be a lot of fun (earlier versions of D&D, and their contemporary retro-clones, spring to mind here).

However, I have to wonder if this level of restriction, at least in terms of character mechanics, is really necessary for the game to still "feel" like RWBY. Admittedly, I have a personal agenda here: I've heavily embraced Third Edition's "options, not restrictions" ethos, of which "customizability" is the watchword. Hence my enthusiasm for Eclipse: The Codex Persona (the sourcebook I mentioned previously).

There's also the not-inconsiderable issue of still having to design such a new class, which (for things like semblances) has a few attendant issues. When you need to create a few class to get what you want out of the system - with the required editing, play-testing, and analysis - you start to get away from the point of using an extant system to begin with.

Finally, there was a BESM d20. The original version (utilizing 3.0 mechanics) came out just as D&D 3.5 was being released; the 3.5 BESM d20 came out shortly thereafter. Today, from what I've seen, only the 3.0 BESM d20 SRD remains available, and the format leaves something to be desired (also, the d20 BESM game is no longer in print, though the new edition of the Tri-Stat BESM RPG is).

Insofar as merging some elements of point-buy character creation with a class-level system goes, d20 BESM was (in my opinion) alright. It attempted, for the most part, to split the difference with class-level and point-buy character generation...I'm not sure how well it worked in practice, however.

Nichosorn wrote: As per the skill point elimination, I don't know about that. Players need skills to perform tasks other then for a heroic ending. As per Aura - it should be a second skill set - kind of like the Jedi Force Points. It is up to the player to choose what skill set (everyday or "special") they will dump their points into.

Is this in reference to someone else's post? I certainly don't recall the elimination of skill points, as they'd be one of the major remaining areas of game mechanics where characters could meaningfully distinguish themselves from other characters, without addressing combat capability. (Though this, of course, then runs into the problem of making them relevant within the context of game-play.)

Nichosorn wrote: When it comes to the e6 system - On paper it sounds wonderful, but it seems too controlling. It (on purpose) forces a player to diversify. I think that is awesome (and it great for making students learn to do more), however some may feel that they are not given a choice. I like where it can go though - so I'm not against it.

The major benefit of E6 (which can be set to any level, really - E10, E14, etc.) is that it helps to "lock" the game system in to a certain area of play, with its attendant "feel." As the link I posted previously regarding E6 mentioned, d20 characters function differently (in terms of thematic abilities) across various levels of development - levels 1-5 are "gritty fantasy," for example, whereas by levels 16-20 they're "(demi)gods" in terms of ability (comparative to both how they were at 1st level, as well as the ordinary 1st-level background characters who make up the world).

Hence, the issue is simply trying to keep things to roughly the area that corresponds to the level of power displayed in RWBY.

Nichosorn wrote: I like your write up for your Intelligence Check Pyrrha write up, but two days later we finish rolling up a charcter. We need something (not dumbed down) more simple. Remember that young adults and tweens may want to play this game too.

I suspect that there's little that can be done, in this regard, without getting too far away from the d20 System proper. While not the most difficult game out there, it is one of the more complex ones, and there's only so much that can be done with to alter that level of complexity before it starts to become a different (albeit related) game altogether.

Not that there's not virtue to be found in that. Thanks to the Open Game License, there are many, many games out there that take the d20 System and modify it to their means; a great deal of them do so with regards to the system's inherent complexity (e.g. True20).

Now, I'll certainly stipulate that Eclipse is, at least at first, complicated. The fact that the book doesn't have that many examples of character construction doesn't help (though the co-author's blog is overflowing with them). However, it's entirely compatible with the d20 System proper, and is not (I think) all that difficult to learn, especially since the lists of powers it presents are near-totally modular (which is fortunate, since narrowing the scope of what it presents is essential for running a RWBY campaign using it).

Nichosorn wrote: I know there is tweaking, I just wanted to put this out there in the beginning.

I can understand that. However, my hunch is that the more (collaborative) effort is required to make a finished product, the less likely it will be that the product is finished. That's another reason to go with a system that is already as close to an end product as can be...albeit one that's still accessible and succeeds in serving the needs of the game.