Board Thread:Episode Discussion/@comment-34633327-20180105193053/@comment-2001:8A0:D22D:9C01:B176:923C:A7D5:C341-20180108203218

KingFubuki92 wrote: 1. Actually, it does get affected by what the story really is about. If "She" didn't actually die in a training mission, but died due to her being another person Ozpin took interest in much like he did Ruby, then the blame can be seen to be Ozpin's fault in that he got her involved in all this just to beat Salem, and fucked up royally.

Remember, after hijacking Oscar, Ozpin ended up beating the metaphorical crap of Hazel with swift strikes, and was going for one more big hit when Hazel was seemingly already down, only failing when Hazel did his "Thunder Quake" (Hitting the ground hard). It came across as Ozpin getting ready to '''finish Hazel off. '''

2. Notice the fact though Ozpin never contradicted him on the story, which again, already reeks of B.S. For what reason would Raven willingly accept a power she claims was forced on her?

3. That is incorrect. A backstory can justify it, so long as it makes sense.

4.

1> That ship has already sailed, we have alot of characters, and even if it hadn't, there are others they are going to undoubtedly focus on that you didn't mention, such as Sun, Ilia, Ghira, Kali, the Villains, Ironwood, etc.

2> Bleach may have had loads of characters, but most of them were secondary supporting at best. The only Supporting Protagonists (The antagonists didn't get as much focus) with Recurring Importance outside of the main 5 (Ichigo, Orihime, Sado, Uryu, and Rukia) were: Renji, Byakuya, Hitsuguya, Matsumoto, Zaraki, Madarame, Yumichika, Mayuri, Kyoraku, Ukitake, Urahara, Yoruichi, Isshin, and Shinji. And none of them came across as One Dimensional. 14 characters, in rotation, meaning we didn't have to deal with them all at once. Conversly, for RWBY, if you don't consider JNR to be Main Cast, you have: Jaune, Nora, Ren, Qrow, Raven, Ozpin, Oscar, Sun, Ilia, Ghira, Kali, Cinder, Emerald, Mercury, Salem, Hazel, and Adam. 17 Characters, with most now being in the same plotline and very little rotation.

Besides, sometimes a larger cast is necessary. An ensemble cast allows numerous perspectives to be seen, the differing styles and beliefs. With Remnant having Four Kingdoms, all of different behavioral enviroments. And of course, there is the matter of different casts per location. I doubt Ghira, Kali, and the Menagerie forces will be going to Vacuo or Atlas, so they'll obviously stay behind when the Haven arc is over, provided Haven is left standing. And the Villains will obviously return to the Dragon Continent, so the core cast will then be split into two focuses, one on the villains, and the other on RWBY, JNR, QR (Assuming Raven joins them), Sun, Ilia (Assuming she sticks around and doesn't stay in Haven), and Ozcar. They alone will not be enough in say, Atlas, where Ironwood is so damn Paranoid he's become the Inverse Trump. They need allies to fight a war, and this is indeed a war.

3> And finally, *ahem* 'Vernal is not actually dead. 'The wound she got from Cinder was in the damn Abdomen. A wound like that is not lethal on its own.

Besides, I actually like Vernal, her weaponry, and the dynamic she could provide by being with the heroes (Weiss having to work alongside her former tormentor, Yang meeting the woman Raven treats more like a daughter than her own daughter, Qrow meeting someone he used to be like not named Raven). Her role is not over yet, her role is not just tricking Salem, it's being Raven's morality pet. Vernal appears to be the most important person to Raven among the tribe, so without her,  yes, Raven could join the heroes, but she could just as easily go off the deep end, blaming the fact the Maiden's even exist and cursing her with this power for Vernal's death. It's a coin toss right now, but it becomes more in favor of the heroes if Vernal lives. Besides, JNR is in need of a fourth team member. Oscar won't be it since he has to deal with Ozpin and is ultimately the leader in training for their group. Ilia wouldn't be it since we only know she is back with Blake, not if she still has resentment for humans, which she probably does (Resentment doesn't go away over night, unless Miles and Kerry pull the "Crappy Writer" card), and as much as Sun neglects them, he has his own team (Which is a factor in and of itself to consider if they choose to come back into the plot). So Vernal could fill that empty spot. We don't even know her real name, so she very well could have a "P" in it. You responded to my comments but seem to ignore half of what I say. We’re really not seeing eye to eye in the discussion of this episode.

For both 1) and 3)    (And I’m going to paste what I’ve said before): It's his sister. The story wouldn't have been much worse if it had been Hazel's daughter, so no reason for Oz to lie about that. Actually, Qrow was the one who said they accepted the power and honestly, Raven uses it a lot. It«s just she has seems to have used it a lot more than Qrow, and seen a lot more because of it and that changed how she saw the world. Nevertheless, it's like I said: Hazel accepted to be part in a plan that leads to several deaths. There's no backstory that can justify it. Even if Ozpin had tortured and killed his sister or even his daughter, it still wouldn't justify it, since Hazel has accepted to be on Salem's team with possibly millions dying just because of 1 man.

Now to add stuff:

I suppose Ozpin could have lied about being his sis when it was his daughter – but honestly I doubt it. Older siblings can be protective (you know, like Yang).

Oscar did sympathize with Hazel. So what if he sympathize more? It’s not like he can reject Ozpin and take him off his body. Would he accept to die? Ozpin would just come back again and again.

<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;mso-bidi-font-family:Helvetica;mso-ansi-language:EN-US">Finally, based on the fact that Hazel took part in killing several huntsmen and huntresses who also had families because of this ONE GUY then, yeah, Ozpin is right – he can’t be reasoned with. And clearly he can’t be stopped by anyone else that isn’t Ozpin, Salem or a Maiden, it seems. At least, Qrow certainly isn’t a match for him and he's supposed to be a great huntsmen. So what if Ozpin was going to finish him off?

<p style="margin:5pt0cm12pt36pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;mso-bidi-font-family:Helvetica;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"> Like I said: even if Ozpin had tortured his sister or fuck entire family including wife and children, and killed them, Hazel still decided to kill and be part of plans that would/will kill millions of people. Yes, no backstory is enough to justify that. If it does to you… then, you and I will have just to agree on disagreeing.

<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst" style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0level1lfo1"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US">2)<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"TimesNewRoman";">      <span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt; line-height:107%;mso-bidi-font-family:Helvetica;mso-ansi-language:EN-US">2)Honestly, I think I justified it already too: she accepted it, she used it, learned more about Salem and now she has the burden of knowledge and feels like she preferred ignorant bliss. She may see it as a curse now, however that doesn’t mean she didn’t want it then and felt like it would be then. Also, again, Qrow was the one who said they wanted it, not Ozpin. Also, he was the one who justified it, because he interrupted Yang, it was clear that Oz would let her continue to rant. If you want to complain about Ozpin, complain about the good guys being stupid as hell and being awful strategists, but the arguments you’re using is just grasping at straws<span style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-attachment:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;">.

<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0level1lfo1"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:EN-US">3)<span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"TimesNewRoman";">       <span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10pt;line-height:107%;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-attachment:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;"> 4)

<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin-left:72.0pt;mso-add-space: auto;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0level2lfo1"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; mso-fareast-font-family:Helvetica;mso-ansi-language:EN-US">1><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"TimesNewRoman";">   <span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt; line-height:107%;mso-bidi-font-family:Helvetica;mso-ansi-language:EN-US">I didn’t forget them, I said RT should stick to those, meaning those should be the most important characters and be the most developed. And obviously, I was not referring to the villains, since those go without saying - without them, there’s no story to tell. Also, I consider a Sun more of a plot device than a character. And I don’t expect the Belladonnas to stay long, so no, I didn’t count them as main. They were there for Blake’s arc, not because they themselves had one<span style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-attachment:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;">.

<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin-left:72.0pt;mso-add-space: auto;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0level2lfo1"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif; mso-fareast-font-family:Helvetica;mso-ansi-language:EN-US">2><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"TimesNewRoman";">   <span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt; line-height:107%;mso-bidi-font-family:Helvetica;mso-ansi-language:EN-US">Weird how you’ve complained about Orihime before now you’re saying she was not 1-dimensional. She was and so was Chad and I could go on and on. But I am not going on a tangent about Bleach now. Bleach has been torn to pieces and then to dust many times before and Orihime has been crowned the Queen of Mary Sues also numerous times. Really all you need to know is: if RWBY is intending to be Bleach level of writing, they can tell me now so I bail before getting to the homicidal stage. To this day, I still have corpses to hide.

<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin-left:72.0pt;mso-add-space: auto;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0level2lfo1"><span lang="EN-US" style="text-indent:-18pt;font-size:10pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-family:"TimesNewRoman";">  Allies don’t need to be developed. I didn’t say there can be no new characters, but I don’t want another one to join the main cast to be poorly handled. Again, to me, the focus should be on RWBY, JNR and TRQ (and yes, I’m including Tai, because him not being in the picture while his 2 daughters are fighting is beyond stupid and also, talk about wasted potential). And if Raven doesn’t join, I expect to still learn more about her and for her to get more developed, especially when she actually seems to be the most interesting character RWBY has to offer. Also, I do expect Ironwood to come back but to be further developed<span style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-attachment:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;">.

<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin-left:72.0pt;mso-add-space: auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;mso-ansi-language:EN-US">3> Dead or dying is the same if the end result is she doesn’t make it. Also, fiction doesn't tend to follow reality that closely. Deaths happen because the writers see it as needed (or characters as no longer needed) even if the death is not necessarily realistic. Why is everyone here a doctor? We don’t know the type of injury. For example: is she bleeding from both liver and stomach? Lungs maybe? Did she suck her soul (since it’s connected to the maiden powers) and only after she noticed it didn’t have any? If it’s just bleeding, were veins injured or arteries? Inferior vena cava? Portal vein? Abdominal portion of aorta? It doesn't seem like it, but depending how long those finger are and which direction, it could happen. How long will Cinder and Raven's fight last? So what if Raven took her to Yang or Qrow? They aren't doctors. Jaune is treating Weiss, we don't know hw long that takes. I don't care about this, to me, all it really matters is what the writers say. But apparently I'm alone on this. There are many things wrong with the writing but Vernal dying from what happened to her in episode 12 isn't one of them as ar as I'm concerned. If in storytelling, what matters to you is anatomy, that's fine, but I don't care about it, provided it's not completely ridiculous, and in this case is not.

<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin-left:72.0pt;mso-add-space: auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;mso-ansi-language:EN-US">Either way, I don’t care about her – she has completed her role it seems and if so, no need to make her stick around. And sorry, but you don’t know if her role is done or not. You can see potential, but well, everything and every character presented can potentially become a great one. If Raven stays, Yang and her will already have a complex deeply torn relationship, even without Vernal, so she’s not needed<span style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-attachment:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;">.

<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin-left:72.0pt;mso-add-space: auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10pt;line-height:107%;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-attachment:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;">“ <span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;mso-bidi-font-family:Helvetica; mso-ansi-language:EN-US">Weiss having to work alongside her former tormentor, ” <span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10pt;line-height:107%;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-attachment:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;">

<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin-left:72.0pt;mso-add-space: auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;mso-ansi-language:EN-US">Raven can fill that role<span style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-attachment:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;">.

<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin-left:72.0pt;mso-add-space: auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;mso-ansi-language:EN-US">As for Qrow, so… they both come from a tribe of thieves and murderers, so what? Also, if you intend to develop him that way, why wouldn’t Raven be good enough? In fact, she’s way better than Vernal for that, since they contrast on so many levels. Vernal is not needed for Raven to join the heroes either, and I don’t see how she would be an incentive, when she’s not exactly righteous either<span style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-attachment:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;">.

<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="margin-left:72.0pt;mso-add-space: auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;mso-bidi-font-family: Helvetica;mso-ansi-language:EN-US">Who says all teams need to have 4 members? Sure that’s how they are made in the Academies, but it’s not like teams stop existing if 1 of them dies or bails. And as far as I know, they don’t need a replacement either. In that case, then you have Qrow, ilia, Sun, Raven (if she joins). Why would Vernal join team JNR even if she joined the good guys<span style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-attachment:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;">?

<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpLast" style="margin-left:72.0pt;mso-add-space:auto"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;mso-bidi-font-family:Helvetica; mso-ansi-language:EN-US">This answer is way too long and probably could have been a lot longer, but I’m going to interrupt it here<span style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-attachment:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;">.

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