Board Thread:Speculation House/@comment-27404492-20170511131216/@comment-25936766-20170606182219

Nikoli the rebel wrote: @Someone, In Utopia...... Wait, is that what Moore considered an "Utopia", what he defined as an Utopia, or is it simply a book called Utopia?

(Does some research).

Ah, now I see........you were throwing some things out of context and leaving out certain details. Including the name.

Yes, "Utopia". But the name has a certain game to it. It's derived from Greek, but not 1 word. 2 words. Outopia, ("Not Place") and Eutopia ("Good Place").

Moore's idea behind the name "Utopia" was based on those 2 words, and is reflected in his Utopia, by being a place that, while idealistic, is only debatably good or moral. It's a land full of Grey.

-They do have slavery, but it is designed first and foremost to punish crimes like adultery. At the same time, forcing everyone to work maintains production and avoids having to deal with Parasitical NEETs who contribute nothing to society.

-Disabilities and Mental Handicaps are not an excuse to not work at all. They can limit what you can do and how good you are for certain tasks, but it is no excuse to be a NEET. That would be insulting, actually.

A person with no legs, a person who is retarded, a person who cannot see.....these things don't mean you cannot contribute, that you cannot help society at large.

-Yes, atheists are not tolerated, but you miss the point behind it: All 4 religions in Utopia are tolerated. Atheists are not, because if you have no afterlife, no beliefs, to impulse you to be moral, then you have no reason to be moral.

And that's a fact to an extent, actually. The idea that if you are a good person you'll go to a good afterlife, back when religion was taken more seriously, was useful; be good, do good, and you'll go to Heaven. Be bad, do bad, and you'll suffer in Hell for eternity. Thus, it is to your benefit to not be evil, do no evil, but instead be Good.

If you have no beliefs or ideals to keep you from doing something terrible, the only thing that can stop you are society's laws, and that, as has been proven since forever, only works to an extent, and it's purely reactive. If you go on a shooting and are arrested, it'll be after you started the shooting, thus it doesn't really prevent you from commiting one.

And by the way, the atheists are not killed or expulsed from Utopia, they are sent to a priest to try and change their minds. Given Utopia is from the 16th Century, that's very progressive.

-Everyone working on a farm.....well, it was the early 16th Century, Industries were not a thing yet, so from the PoV of someone from that age, how else are you going to keep well-fed more than 3.240.000+ people? If it wasn't done, it would be famine incarnate.

-Gold being considered something bad and seen as such is wonderful, actually. Money is the Root of All Evils. Greed, Corruption, Societal Division, Murder, Manipulation, and so on. It can be the fundament of something good, sure, but more often than not it isn't.

So overall, Moore's Utopia cannot be called an Utopia by modern standards. But it's not as Black and Dark as you make it sound. It's more Grey and Gray, since even the "bad" things have a good or logical reason behind them.

Even oppresion of artistic expresion, though for cliché reasons; freedom easily leads to rebellion. The more freedom, the more chaos. Like Hobbes said, humans are free people by nature, and selfish creatures. Let them free, they'll eat their own family for their own gain.

In the end, one could say it's really an Utopia, but one only from a Lawful, Religious point of view.