Talk:Cinder Fall/@comment-24834640-20180620211231/@comment-5430952-20180621194010

@TOSHIKI OVERLORD

I wouldn't put too much stock in her "victory" over Ozpin, before that final exchange she wasn't able to even touch him. And I get the impression Ozpin deliberately threw the fight, most likely to keep Cinder from learning how to obtain the Relic of Choice, he took that knowledge with him to the grave, and Cinder was none the wiser.

As for her infiltrating the school and engineering the Fall of Beacon, that was before she fully became the Fall Maiden. I daresay that after she defeated Ozpin, her ego went out of control and she felt invincible. And even after Ruby put her on the sidelines with her Silver Eyes, Cinder grew only more arrogant once she recovered. And her more strategic side was apparently lost, as shown in "Dread in the Air" in her exchange with Salem.

Cinder: I don't understand. Working with bandits? Keeping Ruby alive? What's the point? We're strong enough to take what we want by force!

So it wasn't that Raven was a Mary Sue in combat, power had gone to Cinder's head and she fought foolishly, and paid for it. And even if Vernal hadn't intervened (how she survived with those huge stalactites falling from the ceiling is beyond me, I agree with SYUTK on that point at least), Raven would've still won in the end, she still had fight left in her while Cinder was barely holding on. It had nothing to do with fanservice, it was to show what Cinder's arrogance had cost her, and I have no problem with her dying after that, she definitely deserved it.