Talk:Downfall/@comment-32354841-20180313161440/@comment-24032889-20180530044722

Here's the thing. If it weren't for Raven, Haven would have fallen because Qrow, Oscar, RNJR, Weiss and Yang would not have even been there aside from the fact that she did Cinder in. Blake would have still shown up, but her forces wouldn't have been a match for Cinder, Hazel, Adam, Merc and Em.

She's an a-hole, but she still organized the playing field in a way that would have eventually not been a loss if things all went her way. So yeah, we do owe that to her regardless of her motives or character.