Board Thread:Speculation House/@comment-34633327-20171002160810/@comment-34633327-20171003223448

SomeoneYouUsedToKnow wrote: Okay, I admit I haven't read the rest of the comments here, I'm just gonna focus on the original points for now.

KingFubuki92 wrote: 1) Nothing says Cinder is a "prodigy".

2) Propaganda isn't just a single speech given after a public murder. And last time I checked, Cinder wasn't making it seem like they were about to start Great War II, but instead just making the people think the governments can't really be trusted.

3) "to follow his ideals". What a convinient choice of words. You make it sound like Ozpin trains students to fit his own design, and not to, you know, prevent the Grimm from killing everyone, Salem or no. And he's not the only one.

If anything, Ironwood's worse, since in Atlas students aren't just trained, but also nagged to join the army.

4) Nothing says Salem sacrificed the Dragon. That would be stupid. Everything says that the Dragon getting petrified was most definitely not part of any plan, but at the same time, it is less consequential than it seems.

5) Now it gets ridiculous and it's just you demonizing Ozpin to suit your design of Ozpin and Salem "being so similar".

First, Amber was basically comatose and if they did nothing she would've died anyway. If that happens, chances were Cinder would get the rest of the Fall Maiden's powers, and that would be bad. Transfering her Aura to Pyrrha, while the consequences were unknown, was miles preferable to letting Amber truly die for nothing beyond giving Cinder, and thus Salem, more power.

Second, while Ozpin letting Ruby into Beacon for her Silver Eyes is likely, assuming that he hoped something would trigger Ruby emotionally in order to activate said Silver Eyes is just a baseless accusation done for nothing but demonization. If he wanted her to unlock her powers so desperately, he would've just told her, like they told Pyrrha about the Maidens.

6) The very power of Destruction, Creation, Knowledge, and whatever Choice does. Or, the power of literal control over the elements without Dust. Does that sound like something you would like everyone fighting each other for? Does that sound like something that should be risked falling into the hands of some greedy, selfish bastard?

Keeping them secret was the only logical choice.

7) The pods did not seem separate. They seemed connected to the machine, which was connected to the wall and floor, so they can't just grab them and throw them. And ripping either of the pods while Amber was there is literally disconnecting her from the only thing keeping her alive.

8) The Grimm are literally attracted to negative emotions like fear. Just what do you think would've happened if he told the people "By the way, we got this huge Grimm horde right at our borders, looking at us. Thank you for listening, please enjoy the festival"?

Obviously, mass panic happens, and everyone dies even sooner.

9) While I agree that Ozpin is no saint at all, no, I do not agree with you on this. Your points are mostly twisting facts or using specific wording to demonize Ozpin's actions, often by ignoring the end of said actions, which is what separates evil from good.

A man shooting a killer for justice. A man shooting a child for fun. Both shot someone, but the motives make a world of difference. 1. I admit I used the term prodigy abit too losely. By "prodigy", I meant unique asset with the potential to be greater than they currently are. Cinder being Salem's Fall Maiden now, and assumedly chosen for that very purpose, Ruby being a SEW and enrolled because of her eyes.

2. Uh... she did make it seem like they were going for GWII. Direct Quote:

"They cling to this power in the name of peace, and yet, what do we have here? One nation's attempt at a synthetic army, mercilessly torn apart by another's star pupil. What need would Atlas have for a soldier disguised as an innocent little girl? I don't think the Grimm can tell the difference. And what, I ask you, is Ozpin teaching his students? First a dismemberment, now this? Huntsmen and Huntresses should carry themselves with honor and mercy, yet I have witnessed neither. Perhaps Ozpin felt as though defeating Atlas in the Tournament would help people forget his colossal failure to protect Vale when the Grimm invaded its streets. Or perhaps this was his message to the tyrannical dictator that has occupied an unsuspecting kingdom with armed forces. Honestly, I haven't the slightest clue as to who is right and who is wrong. But I know the existence of peace is fragile, and the leaders of our kingdoms conduct their business with iron gloves."

The implication I get from this here is that she is implying Ironwood is hiding weaponry among the masses in case of a war breaking out, and that Ozpin is training his students to be killers, not huntsmen, and that the time of peace is so fragile both are getting reading for when one pulls the trigger, breaking the peace even further.

3. I refer to another comment above: "They have the illusion of free will. Ozpin's job as Headmaster is to guide those that train under him, and he says they have no duty to be in service to their kingdom once they graduate, they can do what they please. Except by training them for 4 years he can slowly condition them to believe in his ideals while making it seem as if they believe this willingly." Their main job would to be or course protect the people and kill the grimm, but if he invited any of them into his circle later, they could easily fall in line with what he wants due to his ideals being drilled into their skulls.

4. Again I refer to another I made: "The Dragon was under her control via Cinder, and while she may not have expected to lose it, she doesn't seem too upset by the loss. And if Glynda's reaction to it actually being there is anything, the Dragon isn't too common and can be inferred to either be one of a kind or rare in appearance." Yet Salem seems to be unaffected by it's lose at all. So, acceptable loses, as while it was lost, the Maiden's powers were obtained.

5. I'm not demonizing him. You admit that Amber indeed had to die if they wanted to give the power to Pyrrha. But was there any indication they tried to revive Amber? Ironwood said they used Atlas tech to keep her on life support, and that they had made strides in Aura Research. Why not transfer Amber's aura into a machine like Penny, or Penny herself? Penny is the first android capable of generating Aura, wouldn't it have made more sense to put it in a blank machine to offer the chance for Amber to live?

And the accusation about the SEW isn't baseless. Ozpin has been very interesting in regards to his handling of Team RWBY. But the major thing I find interesting is allowing RWBY to go on a mission with Oobleck to the SouthEast. He says he did this because he figured they'd go anyway if he told them not too, but it just seems off he gives this one team so much freedom. It can easily be called "Protagonist Rights", but they have gotten away with the fight at the Docks, The Fight with the Paladin (Which probably caused some deaths will all the cars sent flying off the road by Roman), and then letting them go to the SouthEast. With the knowledge of Ruby's powers being unlocked by an emotional trigger, and that fact that someone close to her nearly died in two of those situations, it seems too suspicious.

Do I think he planned for them to nearly die? No. Do I think he would have been fine with a teammate of hers dying in a mission? No! Do I think he would accept it if it furthered the chances of stopping Salem? Maybe..... in the sense of neccessary sacrifices. He did say he has made more mistakes than anyone alive, some of them may be people dying for the greater good but their deaths being in vain. I said at the very end I don't think Oz is evil, I just think in his methods to stop Salem he can be just as ruthless/unscrupulous. A Well Intentioned Extremist.

6) There was another option though. Keeping them secret from the public eye is like ripping off a bandaid slowly. Rip it off too slow, the pain lasts longer. Rip it off immediently, the pain is quick. If he kept it a secret and it came to light, not only is the trust in him lost, but it gives the impression the powers were being hoarded by him. So what is the solution? Tell the truth from a certain angle. Instead of saying there are four human girls with unimaginable power ripe for the killing to take the power, tell the public there are four normal girls being hunted by a delusional psycho who thinks they have great power. Instead of saying there are four powerful Relics that can make someone near god level by using them all, say there are four priceless artifacts someone is looking steal. Narrow's the field of potential attackers, and allows them to made public without causing too much of a disturbance. Just make the magic sound mundane.

7) Hence why I suggested Glynda help. Glynda's semblance can cast a barrier around the pods until the situation outside is quelled enough, or until Ironwood can get down there. A makeshift power source could then be rigged up with Gylnda then ripping Amber's pod out of the ground and adding the new power source, then they could get Glynda and Amber out of there through a route Cinder wouldn't know of easily, while Ironwood or Ozpin go out to finish helping.

My main complaint is that it was Ozpin coming out to get Pyrrha that alerted Cinder to Amber's whereabouts. She didn't know where Amber was until she saw Ozpin come for Pyrrha, then followed them and attacked Amber while Oz and Jaune were distracted by Pyrrha's agony. Ozpin's own rush to get Amber's power out of Cinder's reach is what let her get them.

8) Again, make the magic mundane. Tell the public the grimm are outside because of the publics own feelings. Reassure them that the huntsman are working their hardest to stop them, and encourage them to think more about the festival so as to deprive the Grimm of negativity. He'd be telling the truth in a certain sense, but also calming them down enough to keep their faith maintained.

9) I am aware of the phrase the end justifies the means. But I find that phrase to be a bit flawed. Using your analogy, lets start with the man shooting a killer for justice. Who was the killer? Did he kill an innocent person? Or did he kill someone who had commited a crime but there wasn't enough evidence to arrest. Who was the man getting justice for? The greater good? Or personal? A man shooting a child for fun? Was the man in his right mind when he did it? Was the man in control of his actions or was he being controlled? Who was the child? Was he an ordinary child with nothing to do with the man? Did he goad the man into shooting?

Motives may make a difference, but a motive also has layers and layers. Just as there are several different brands of evil (Neccessary, Lawful, Chaotic, Neutral, etc.), there are several brands of good (Selfish, Selfless, Chaotic, etc.) If the ends seems justifiable upon initial glance but becomes less so the more it is scrutinized, is it still justified?