Board Thread:Speculation House/@comment-26417457-20190905232433/@comment-14909251-20190911072819

ChishioKunrin wrote: Or she could just be Cinderella whose Fairy Godmother never came, and she finally cracked and had to find a way to get out of the abuse herself.

I personally like to think something of that nature happened, though perhaps Salem gave her an assist or goaded her into taking action.

Kaitryona Acheron wrote: She was never ordered to kill Pyrrha, and she didn't have to. She was never ordered to kill the Mistral woman, and she didn't have to. But she did it all anyway. Those are evil choices, and it's what makes her evil.

Why do people bring these things up? She really did have to kill both and that isn't a justification or defense, but logic. Letting Pyrrha live makes no sense. All that would do is guarantee Cinder would have to fight her again some day, when she is stronger and way more likely to kick Cinder's ass successfully. The Mistral woman was a witness and Cinder was a fugitive wanted for serious crimes. I mean, you can say they are evil choices all the same, but the good choices in both cases basically amount to her surrendering.

It's also worth mentioning the first thing Cinder did after her defeat in Haven. She could have focused on her mission to retrieve the relics. She could have focused on any number of things. But, instead, she focused on defying orders and conspiring to murder a child, for the purpose of revenge and nothing else. That is an astoundingly evil choice, and one that many villains wouldn't make under similar circumstances.

Again, her choices her are perfectly logical. Sure, revenge is a factor, but there is a bit of that in JNR joining up with Ruby and heading to Haven as well. However, it also just makes sense from Cinder's perspective as Ruby can seriously wound her. Calling Ruby a "child" is pretty absurd when she is basically a soldier of military age in her world and even more absurd given she can just look with her special eyes and turn a dragon into a statue. That's not normal.

I also don't believe for a moment that Cinder was threatened into doing any of this by Salem. Salem is a classic manipulator. She identifies weaknesses in people and uses those weaknesses to bend them to her will. She plays on people's desires, makes promises, offers security, vengeance; whatever she needs to garner loyalty. And the one thing we know about Cinder is that she craves power. So it makes most sense that the way Salem assimilated Cinder was through promises of power; a promise she has already delivered in the form of maiden powers.

Moreover, Cinder doesn't act like a hostage. She demonstrates independence, and a willingness to commit evil acts that extend beyond her directive. So a revelation that Cinder was forced into Salem's service would raise more questions than it would answer.

Just because she is a certain way now, doesn't mean she was always that way. She probably spent years with Salem, perhaps even a decade for all we know at the moment. I think it can't be discounted that Cinder seized on Neo being a loophole in Salem's orders. Even as she was defying her, she was trying to not quite be disobeying. Would that be fear of Salem, loyalty to Salem, or perhaps something to the effect of falling into a life-long pattern she knows all too well?

Salem does manipulate, but that isn't just offering people what they want. After all, Cinder needs to clearly understand that she has to follow Salem's commands no matter how much power she may obtain. Given how Salem operates, there is no way that doesn't entail some kind of intimidation so everyone is clear on the pecking order. Do we really think Cinder's rebellious streak is a new thing? I suspect Salem has had to set her straight several times. Much of this would be familiar territory for Cinder with the exception that she is actually being offered something of value at the end.

But even if Cinder were threatened into service of Salem, it is important to note that that is still an inherently evil choice. Choosing to murder dozens of innocents to preserve your own life is evil. It's selfish. And though it's not an easy choice, the morally righteous choice in that scenario (assuming that you can't escape and go into hiding) is to die. Choosing to become a mass murderer is always evil, no matter what the circumstances of the choice. That's one of the things that separates heroes from villains. Heroes will lay down their life to save others. Villains will always prioritize self-preservation.

This is essentially what I said, but I also think it is too much a black-and-white mindset here. People who might otherwise be good can, in the real world, easily be pulled into doing horrible things. I think a major factor with Team WTCH is that most of them are people who would, had their story played out normally, generally been good people. Tyrian is the one exception since his inspiration is basically someone who, by nature, will always cause needless harm to others.